Disclaimer: This is a long post, feel free to skip it. Giveaways and takeaways are the most subjective stats kept by the NHL. That doesn't necessarily change in the game, as parts of this post are conjecture. However, I do believe that there are two rules that are consistent in totaling giveaways and takeaways. Also, a takeaway by one player does not equal a giveaway by the opposing player. The links are simply links to twitch clips, nothing malicious... but that's what someone trying to get your information would say, so use at your own risk, I guess? Replace the {...} with twitch. tv without the space for those who didn't know. The Giveaway: So most of us know what this is in hockey. Mostly it's a misplaced pass or just straight up gift to the opponent's tape that makes you facepalm or audibly curse your idiot teammate. The most egregious of these are through the neutral zone and the perpetrator is your defenseman. The game most definitely counts these. In real life, we wouldn't usually consider a pass in the o-zone trying to connect to a back door play as a giveaway. It would appear that the game also considers most of these as giveaways if it's intercepted cleanly. One more culprit seems to be the dump around the boards if it is passed rather than shot. If it's intercepted by an opposing player, this is a giveaway. The Takeaway: Again, I'd like to think a lot of people instantly recognize these when they happen in real life. Whether it's someone getting their pocket picked or just plain pressure on a player that causes them to mishandle or cough up the puck. Takeaways that are almost guaranteed to be recorded are those that are forced and recovered by a single player. In real life, I'd say that in some scenarios, a player can force the turnover and another can recover and it still be considered a takeaway. It doesn't seem as if the game considers these takeaways, or if it does, it is inconsistent. How I "Gathered Data": There have been a good number of games streamed already this season. So, I went through and looked at several (5) games where there were players that had a low number of GA/TA. I did this because it's much easier to miss a GA or TA if it is someone who had 25 GA and 10 TA. Missing what I would consider a GA or TA would mean that I couldn't be sure if the others I noted were actually counted as GA/TA (note: there is still some inherent uncertainty). The Clips: Here are clips I would consider solid examples of GA/TA. While I did use other users' streams to look at GA/TA, I didn't ask for permission to use anyone's streams (not sure if I needed to or not but w/e) so these are only clips from my own. (note: any way to embed twitch clips directly? media tag wouldn't do it) https://clips.{click the twitch ico... twitch streams}/SavageKathishShingleEagleEye The center chops the puck up the boards to the LD. Who, like some moron, just throws the puck down the boards to absolutely nobody and it's recovered by the other team. Wow, great play 44. This is a giveaway. (Btw, this is not unlike dumping it in via pass, which also seems to be recorded as a giveaway if recovered cleanly by the opposing team.) https://clips.{click the twitch ico...le twitch streams}/SmoggyAgitatedBoarRickroll The RD wants to get rid of the puck quick while being pressured a little. Seeing the LW streaking to the far boards but misses the player moving into the passing lane and the pass gets intercepted. This is almost always recorded as a giveaway in the game. https://clips.{click the twitch ico...e twitch streams}/SpookyCloudyConsoleTooSpicy The opposing winger tries to enter the zone being pressured by the RD. The puck is poked loose so the winger attempts to retrieve it. He recovers but the puck is then knocked loose again by the LD who then recovers it (which blows the play dead b/c of the delayed penalty). Note the end of the play where the Center almost picks up the puck. It seems so far as if that would have happen, or if even the LD would have taken the puck after the RD poked it initially, it would most likely not have counted as a takeaway. https://clips.{click the twitch ico...e twitch streams}/ImportantHorribleJamDBstyle The winger comes down the boards and does a loose puck deke to the outside. It's swept away cleanly and the recovered by the LD. That seems to be recorded as a takeaway, but the LD is then hit by the opposing RD and then recovered by that same RD. It would seem that the opposing RD was also given a takeaway for this play. https://clips.{click the twitch ico...streams}/CarefulCooperativeAsparagusBCWarrior This play is simple enough. The winger got closed off to the wall and wanted to force a shot down by a goal late in the third. The defender closed the gap and used the defensive stick to knock the puck loose and recovered it himself. Then, the defender makes a poor pass (though, it seems his winger was unable to recover the puck for some unknown reason) and resulted in the other team securing it. I believe that was counted as a giveaway and almost always is. What This Means: Giveaways are a tough stat to keep using any sort of algorithm. Players without a ton of giveaways are probably managing the puck better than others, but at some point there needs to be efforts to get the play to the net, this seems to result in giveaways and is detrimental stat wise to the players who do this more often. However, this could also be a sign of what players continually force plays that aren't open. This affects forwards more. Defenders seem to get more giveaways through break out passes than anything. But an active defenseman in the offensive zone will also accrue more giveaways, though from watching the player we could determine if these are from poor puck management or needing to force the play to the net. Giveaways also have much more of a "wtf" factor as a broken puck pick-up or a player just unwiliing to recover the puck leads to the other team getting it. Takeaways are fairly consistent but certainly not wholly indicative of someone's defensive play. Aggressive players are more likely to secure a takeaway, but obviously getting a takeaway is the quickest way to gain back possession. Team efforts on a single player are "usually" not considered a takeaway, but I would still say takeaways are a good stat to take into consideration. Players who are more passive are going to have more trouble getting takeaway numbers. Final Take: Rule 1: A pass being cleanly intercepted is a giveaway. Rule 2: A puck being knocked loose in any way and recovered by that same player is a takeaway. These accounted for ~90% of the observed giveaways/takeaways. Though, these were by "low event" players and in a limited number of games, so results may vary. Without EA letting us know the algorithm they used to code the usage of the GA/TA stat, all of this is conjecture. Bonus clip: @FtB x Grizz https://clips.{click the twitch ico...reams}/AdventurousRenownedWoodpeckerBrainSlug
Didn't read this... But I'm assuming the TLDR is that takeaways and giveaways are broken. Here's my surprised face . How does one manage to give a puck away without having someone else take it? Giveaways are always significantly higher than takeaways, so that's a question only EA can answer. Maybe they're just telling us we all f*cking suck?
My TLDR would be that they are recorded differently than analysts would in real life, but they can still be useful esp. with other information. In response to your question, a giveaway is basically an unforced error. I.e. the defenseman making a bad breakout pass right to the other team. A takeaway is like being knocked off the puck and having it taken from you. Think of giving as in "gifting" and taking as in "stealing", if I gift you a present you didn't steal it from me did you? That's why in real life and in the game giveaways don't equal takeaways, because they aren't different sides of the same coin, they are different coins. Hope that helps, and thanks for responding.
It's recorded terribly in game, but at the same time it is all relative. We have been playing this game long enough to have a "feel" for when we play a good possession game. These games usually lead to about 8-12 giveaways and 1-6 take aways. At the same time we can tell when someone is forcing everything, and this leads to a high number of turnovers. Long story short, we have enough data to know what is good vs bad. The numbers aren't right, but I believe it can be used as a comparative stat. No stat in a video game is perfect for analytics.
wouldn't you say if you get stick lifted and the puck gets stolen that it would count as a give away? i'd think so.
Giving the puck away and having someone take it from you are literally the same thing. This game also counts dumps and missed shots recovered by opposing teams as giveaways. Stat is broken.
False, a giveaway in hockey is when a players own actions result in them losing the puck. Read the OP and you’ll see the distinction. Stats are broken but that wasn’t an argument I was bringing up, thanks for that.
Stat should be simple Anytime I pass to opposing team or i lose possesion of puck that results in other team gaining possesion should be a giveaway unless it is a dump in that crosses the opposing team's goal line. Any time I pick off a pass from the opposing team or dislodge the puck for the opposing team that results in me or my own team gaining possesion should be a takeaway If they wanna get more detailed give .5 instead of a full takeaway if I dislodge puck and my teammate picks it up. We both receive .5
I've never really looked at giveaway/takeaway stats before. I always just assumed that a give away was assigned if you lost the puck within a certain parameter set out by the stat takers, and that a takeaway was when you took the puck away from another player. Apparently that's not the case. I haven't found an actual definition from the NHL but this appears to be the definition of both. Takeaway - By definition a takeaway occurs when pressure from the defending team results in a defending player gaining possession of the puck. Giveaway - A giveaway is when a players own actions result in a loss of possession to the opposing team. I wonder if EA uses a guideline like this, or if its more like what I thought it was. LG keeps a +/- on Giveaways/takeaways, which makes me think that LG assumes that EA considers a takeaway as a defensive player creating a turnover. maybe @LG McDonald or @Tris10 can shed some light on this?
I'm pretty confident that EA didn't get creative whatsoever with the GA/TA and this is how it's counted (hence my "two rules" in OP). A giveaway is when a player presses the pass button and it ends up with the other team, a giveaway is awarded to said player. A takeaway is when a a player knocks the puck loose in any way and recovers it himself, a takeaway is award to said player. That's it. Almost every GA/TA that I looked at among players I mentioned earlier were these. (I say "almost" because I can't say with exact certainty that it was 100%.) Is this how I would choose to record them, or how they are recorded in real life? Not really, but it's something.
This isn't just an EA issue. It's prevalent in the actual NHL as well. It's a subjective stat that each scorekeeper can mark down differently. If anything, it's easier to standardize this in a video game - for better or worse, everyone is scored on the same criteria.
