LGHL vs Esports (ESHL)

more ways to give Jam/ composure your money : D

 

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This.


To put it bluntly there are only so many top elite players and they stack their teams with the other elite players. There is zero incentive for us lower skilled players to join.

Ultimately I think If you want to grow esports for NHL than you need to do it 1v1 due to the limited amount of top players. Instead of having these elite players teaming up against the rest of the community make them face each other.

I can't help but laugh at some of the "pros" the OP put. "Earn respect." Lmao. Yeah okay more like pay x amount of dollars to get shit on by guys with huge virtual egos then get told to get good.

 

Are we comparing a franchise sports game to mass computer games right now?

League of Legends: 100M monthly players

2016 World Champ Prize Pool: 5M$

MOBA/DOTA2: 13M monthly players

2017 World Champ Prize Pool: 24M$
2016 World Champ Prize Pool: 20M$

Those are Computer games right. Nothing we can aspire to be because LoL and DOTA are games that throughout the years have stayed basically the same. So the community stays around and grows as the years go by.

Now for console games, the 2 big ones are Halo and Call of Duty.

Halo 5: Around 5M

2017 World Champ Prize Pool: 1M$
2016 World Champ Prize Pool: 2.5M$

Call of Duty: average about 1k users a day, peaked at 15k when game first came out

2017 World Champ Prize Pool: 2M$
2016 World Champ Prize Pool: 1M$

Those are the two top console games let alone.

When it comes to sports games, Madden was the highest ever with the 500k prize pool in the 2017 World Champs, but that was just for versus, no teams there. They tried the same thing for NHL in 13 and the Prize pool was 70k for this versus winner.

Why can't we compete?

1 - We have such varied community. It goes from 12-16 yo to 40 yo playing the game. Which leads to different schedules and not as much time to put in the games. The grinders/pro players in other titles put up to 6-8 hours a day into the game.

2 - The inconsistency in the game. The game is made to be random because all the realistic aspects of the real game of hockey are impossible to copy in the virtual game.

3 - Connection. It's a big issue for every game, but it's an even bigger issue in this league because not very many people actually play this game competitively when they first start, yet it makes such a big issue. 4 Ping vs 15 Ping makes a huge difference, yet those are both considered really good Ping numbers. Unfortunately, even those guys will be having 40+ Ping when facing guys across the country, without talking about the wifi guys who have to face lag spikes every night almost going from 15 to 700 at times.

4 - The money. All aspiring kids in other big titles can actually dedicate themselves to the game keeping in mind that there will be money at the end. Whether it's sponsors, UMG (at least for CoD), and other tournaments along the way. These kids are willing to put 6-8 hours a day into the game because at the end of the night they might win a bit of cash. The viewership on Twitch and Youtube also leads to a bit of money for them. This viewership leads to sponsors such as Astro, Scuff, KontrolFreek, GFUEL, etc. Just to name a few of the common ones for CoD at least.

5 - The community itself, the so called "Elites" won't ever change, but those so called elites are usually guys who have the top connection, monitor, time and money to invest into the game. Compare that two your Average Joe's who like to compete, are actually decent at the game but play on a 20 ping on a 60 inch TV.. they have no shot. No matter how good they are at the game. The animations are different for those guys.

And since ESHL promotes winning which is totally normal, those elites are gonna stick together and win all the money while your shitters will try but will just feed those top 3-4 teams with money they don't actually need.

I like the idea of having some lower ranks kind of GB/UMG tournaments or simple marchups. Have people sign up with their teams and schedule games that way with other teams and build a record like that. Can even put money on the line for it. Doesn't have to be tournaments either, but I think having wagers is a way to enhance the competition level and desire to put the time and money into the game.

Will there be good teams and bad teams, yes of course, but a ESHL league is not the only option to play for money.

 

Before I address the post, I would like to preface this by saying people need to understand that playing in the tournament isn't always about winning. You play to get better, and do that by seeing how better teams play. You stack yourself up to the best to be the best. Teams like Jam and Composure didn't just overnight become the sensation because they won a single game. You have to realistically win game after game each night in order to prove you deserve to be in the conversation. Not only that, you have to continually prove you are a team worthy of other teams looking at you. Look at how many teams jump Jam for losing ONE FUCKING GAME in club one night. What about the other 99 ass poundings you got before? It's comical. But that's the respect they've earned. Success is built over a long period of time, and playing events like this allows teams to grow to eventually be the next in line guys. So to me, I wish people would look at a team like Americas Cup who made a big impression on a lot of teams by winning a lot of games people didn't think they'd win. Playing tournaments like this allows average teams to stack up, and earn the same respect that better teams have. That's what we built EASHL on back in 09, and what makes this so great. Teams play for the right to be the "best". If teams just played (win or lose) to get better, the community as a whole would be vastly better because of it. Just playing casual 6's with randoms will never help you get better. It just won't. Realize all the teams playing in this tournament play nightly when all the weaker teams get off. We all play big games consistently in club, and then take that to ESHL to put stats behind it. Winning a game a 5 is way different than winning at 1030. Get 6 guys, and tough it out. Take your beatings, and get better from it. Teams that routinely get shit on refuse to adjust. By playing better teams nightly, those weaknesses become easier to address. Fix them together with the same group of guys, and who knows what can become of it.

Now that I have said that... I have vested quite a bit of time over these last events to try and make this the best thing it can possibly be. I think there are a few glaring issues that really prevent this from growing to what it ultimately could be. Scheduling by far has been the biggest hurdle. Last season we went to a schedule your own games (which minus a few teams, worked fairly well). For the most part, games were played, and the amount of forfeits were down from what they were a session before. Ultimately what I have found is player in this event put other leagues ahead of this. We have guys who even own teams in the LG league, owning teams in ESHL as well. The issue is with this is now their priority is focused on their LG team at that time, and ESHL takes a back seat. Is there something wrong with this... no. It is great that the top players in the league are vested into their LG teams as well, but ultimately it pulls away from the end game of promoting the ESHL league. At the end of the day, we had guys forfeit games last season because they would rather play VG than play an ESHL game that THEY PAID TO PLAY IN. Let that sink in for a minute...

I personally was going to push for set game times at 10 pm on 2-3 days (@jonlol and I agree here). This is a universal time that most people are up, and on the game. It would maximize the number of people who are able to play in this event. By doing this, however, we have to commit as a site/league to the fact that your ESHL game takes precedence over your LG game. There are 9 games in LG each week. There is no reason we cannot implement something where teams who play ESHL are required to play their scheduled ESHL game over any other league if only a couple nights a week. If they fail to do this, the punishment crosses over into the LGHL league. That is the only penalty stiff enough to stop forfeits from happening, while assuring games get played IMO.

I do agree, however, that the general promotion of the ESHL event is nowhere near what it could be to grow it. I had about 5 teams that had contacted me after seeing the first set of games wanting to put a team in. They missed the deadline, and had planned to put a team in for the next event. I think that it is encouraging to see this. What people need to realize is that club used to be this great thing because teams stuck together. They played better teams, and got better as a group. As they progressed together, the entire unit became strong enough to compete against the whole. Too many people these days lack the commitment to a club because they can come in the chatbox to find 6 whenever they get on instead of banding their own group together. I find that really discouraging because many of these throw together teams could actually band together to make pretty decent rosters. Teams like JAM are so tough to beat because they have literally played so many games together as a unit... they know EXACTLY what the other person is going to do. It is a well oiled machine.

As a site, LGHL is at the level it is because everywhere you look, it's what you see. "Grow your virtual career..." is a slogan that is geared to guide people into a league that this site is founded on which is great. But the only way to grow our success rate of sponsorship, and grow the numbers into a league like the ESHL, is to stick it right in the spot light. Make the ESHL league a premium focal point on the site, and then after that has been done... say oh and we also offer this league called the LGHL. Finding the ESHL page is like finding buried treasure here, and not many people get to that forum enough to stay up to date. We can achieve way more if the promotion is geared to the right place. That is what drove the LGHL league to where it is now, and is the only way to grow the ESHL league as well. Put it front and center of everything. At this point, LGHL stands on its own. People come here just for that. We need to now highlight to everyone else this next venture of LG.

I'm on board with Jon on much of what he said as well, and he and I have spoke about other things that we all will get together on, but there are definitely some improvements to be had. I think it is a great discussion @SweeT 9 LoU 84 brought up, and is something that I will follow to see others thoughts.

 

The game, the player base, the audience, the format, everything just isn't on par for a huge cash prize E-Sports tournament yet. You have to start small, especially on a console only NHL game. A lot of people want to skip steps and try to make this into something that I just don't think we're ready for yet.

In my opinion EASHL E-Sports is still in the experimental stages and does not have the foundation to have a huge cash prize tournament yet. It all starts off with the game at it's core which quite frankly has way too many exploits, bugs, connection issues and RNG to advance to the next level of competition that we see other games have. EA is still new to the competitive scene on NHL and only in the past few years has it started to shape the game away from being a casual game. The game itself just isn't ready to support large scale E-Sports yet.

Next is the depth of skill in these tournaments as well as the audience. Nearly all successful E-sports are hosted on PC which is one big united community with no limiting factors on who can play who. Over here on console we have our already small NHL community which is then split in half due to the PS4 and Xbox making the depth and amount of skilled players far too thin. (You also have east vs west teams not being able to play against each other competitively due to servers) This same issue causes our audience to shrink for streaming and I think is the main burden holding NHL E-Sports back from becoming bigger. We have a small community as it is and combined with the fact that many top teams can't compete with one another destroys our chances at having enough teams to really compete.

As for the format of these tournaments to try and fix the problem, it's like trying to rearrange the chairs on the titanic. Without a solid game, skill depth and an audience to work with you can't fix the major problems.

 

A huge problem with the entire first paragraph you began with is not everyone wants to have to work to play a video game. A lot of players play video games to have fun. It is a literal game after all. Sure maybe finding random 6's in the chat box kills your pro series dreams but to many NHL gamers they want to get on play the game maybe meet some new people and have fun.

I truly believe that if you put the lghl leagues in the back seat and attempt to move eshl into the limelight you are going to see an exodus of players. People enjoy this site for what it is not for the potential pro series hopes that a select few players have for it.

I strongly believe that this discussion and this push for a highlight of eshl over lghl is only to push the agenda of a select group to further their own personal interests while riding on the coat tails of an already successful format and league system. It is more about personal achievement As an attempt to get more exposure for themseves and their teams, and less about building the NHL gaming community.

 

That's a romantic paragraph but it's painfully unrealistic for the majority of this community.

I could be wrong but I don't think there's anyone from Composure or JAM that are products of Composure or JAM. What I mean by that is, I don't think these were average clubs that took beatings to improve their game. I recognize a lot of the names from those clubs going back years (not seasons, years.)

ESHL teams use the Miami Heat model.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that because obviously, why wouldn't you play with the best players on the game to give yourself the best shot at winning? But don't act like that's realistic for most of the league to achieve lol

The only way that paragraph makes sense is if you're directing it at guys who are already considered "elite" but aren't currently participating in ESHL. They could conceivably form a group with fellow elite players and, maybe with a little bit of chemistry building, they could upset a few of these teams that are already established.





As for the rest of your post, I'm honestly a little worried that you guys think ESHL should be prioritized over LG.

I get it, you want to focus on the niche that you also happen to be a part of... but prioritizing ESHL > LG is pretty ridiculous until you come up with a plan to make this appealing to the masses.

 

In terms of teams I 100% know they weren't made over night. But that is exactly my point. These guys have played thousands of games as a group and are as good as they are because of it. It is exactly my point. The odds a random 6 will beat them is slim to none, and unless a team consistently plays together they have little chance of success.

I'm advocating the repatriotization of club. I'm completely against the random 6s we now see and want us to move back to more club centered events. Top players generally dislike playing in lg, and events like this allow them to chose their landing place. That is what we all want in this event. Sure you can beat these people in lg, but it means nothing unless I can beat them in club with their group. It just doesn't.

I'm no longer apart of running things moving forward, and plan to primarily play on Xbox for 18. There aren't enough teams to play because people just back out when they see a good club. In eshl you can't run and that's what clubs want. Competitive games. I want this to succeed but at the end of the day you can't please everyone. Someone will always bitch about how they can do it better, or how someone else's way sucked. It just comes with the territory and hopefully jon can keep the momentum moving forward.

 

******shut yo bitch ass up

 

Tbh NHL will never get taken seriously if you can't connect from east to west without one side suffering from delay.

 

Host is an issue in all esports. That's why the big tournaments are LAN. Not a single "online warriors" team is taken seriously til they win on LAN. But the thing is, there are no LANs for NHL. So yeah in a sense you're right it will never be taken seriously.

 

It's hard for average players to take beatings and get better when we (top players) only play other elites. Pounding them 7-0 isn't fun for anyone. Imo, Xbox had it right with separate divisions. All the top teams are in div 1 or whatever, then the lower teams are placed in a different division. Correct me if I'm wrong on this format @xbox people

 

Pretty sure xbox format was invite/open division ps4 should do the same but increase the buy in for the invite and keep the open the same. The winners of the open should meet the winners of the invite that way the open team could possibly upset the invite team if they dont at least they can be in the finals and win money.

 

@jdheagle-

Yes but that ESHL (First season of NHL 17) we had 31 teams.

12 invite
19 open

Ps4 only had 20 last season and the sesson before on xbox we had 33 so we had enough of a gap between top middle and bottom teams and enough teams to do it. Im sure ps4 will have more teams this season as well as some xbox teams coming over so it could def work. We would just need to decide how to determine seeding.

When @Nuge did it he took the top 8 Teams from the prior season that had a roster rentetnion rate of I believe at least 6 of their 10 (roster limit at the time) players and then had a double elim tourney for the other teams and new entrants for the last spots.

Other options are
2 week HUT league style challenge games

An all committe vote (tough to do bc of bias and egos)

Don't do it the first season and then change to invite and open for the following season based off S1 of nhl 18 ESHL standings

 

But this is what I'm saying, they were great individual players well before they came together and became a powerhouse 6s team.

For 6 average NHLers to come together and get to that level, it would take a pretty unrealistic level of dedication.


I fully understand what you're saying but it's just not realistic in the current community. If this happened in NHL 09 or 10, there may have been a huge market for this.

 

idc make it happen or give up, stop teasing my cock with all these ideas

 

Dear all lower end players,

We all started as a lower end player thay is just straight facts. Take me for example. Started playing 6s in '16 and went for 500k in season 1. By season 3 i went for 7.5M but yet still was not in a great club. All it takes is gameplay to get better. You need to take ass beatings in order to get better. I've been pumped by people who ended up being my teammates months later. It truly only took 1 year to improve and now I'm beating team's I never could. All it takes is gameplay, repetition, and knowledge.

- Dxwny