LGHL vs Esports (ESHL)

Discussion in 'Leaguegaming Hockey League (LGHL PSN)' started by SweeT 9 LoU 84, Aug 14, 2017.

  1. SweetLou9208

    SweetLou9208 Well-Known Member

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    There has been some discussion lately about why The LG COMMUNITY (Players and staff) @Tris10 @LG McDonald prioritize League over eSports.

    LGHL
    LGAHL
    LGCHL

    Over

    ESHL

    Every other gaming community promotes and prioritizes the MONEY leagues/tournaments over the free leagues

    However, the NHL community has always seemed to have this backwards. Why is that?

    XBOX
    LG Sign Ups - 3,849

    ESHL SIGN UPS (Not The Marc Savard House Party Invitational) - 248 players
    12 Teams Invite Division
    19 Teams Open Division

    PS4
    LGHL Sign Ups -2,733

    ESHL PSN - 158 players
    19 teams

    *Don't know why people are switching to Ps4 with those numbers

    Why does the community sign up for a Free league with no prize money and less competition when there's a money league with better competition and potential to win money for playing


    LGHL
    PROS
    1.) Free To Sign Up

    2.) Having a chance to win
    a) Somewhat random teams
    b) Need depth and multiple lines
    c) Chance to play with new people

    3.) Set Scheduled Game Times
    a) Scheduled Games (SUN-THURS)
    b) Same PRIME Time Slots every week (9/10/11)
    c) Only have to play 3 games a week (6 for Gs) and a MIN of 1 night a week (with Tuesdays 9 10 11) or MAX of 3 nights a week

    4.) Sim Structure
    a) Bidding
    b) Trades
    c) Real teams
    d) AHL affiliate, can be called up

    5.) Statistics and Awards
    a) Individual awards
    b) Build and win as a team
    c) Make a name for yourself

    CONS
    1.) Poorly managed teams Owners/GMs/AGMs
    a) Build a bad team
    b) Dont have a team chat to communicate
    c) Dont make sure someone is on to organize games every night
    d) Bid on bad or cancerous players

    2.) Forfeits still exist
    a) People no show without messaging their mgmt beforehand
    b) Mgmt dont gather ECUs in time or have them ready
    c) Some mgmt and/or players give up on the season once they're out of playoffs after the trade deadline

    3.) Bidding
    a) Go for too much in bidding
    b) Not get a bid
    c) Go to a bad team

    Esports ESHL
    PROS
    1.) Win Money

    2.) Play with whoever you want

    3.) Highest competition

    4.) Earn respect from peers

    5.) Help grow the hockey esport

    CONS
    1.) Have to buy in

    2.) Scheduling is still awful (we've tried play when you want and make your own schedule in advance) It is mainly set around LG times which is a killer bc they have the prime slots and most esports players are on different lg teams.

    3.) Forfeits still exist and effect standings
    a) Some teams FF games once they're out of playoffs.

    MISCELLANEOUS
    1.) The split between the consoles xbox and ps4, as mentioned by
    @NeNe in his http://www.leaguegaming.com/forums/index.php?threads/project-make-nhl-great-again.261577/

    2.) NHL is a hobby, not a job

    3.) The issue isn't so much playing or promoting LGHL more as it is skipping or rescheduling games for LGHL instead of ESHL




    What are your issues with ESHL or with LG and what you think would fix it?
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
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  2. Goosechuk

    Goosechuk Probably LGHL PSN Hall of Famer

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    I think the biggest thing is the "hobby not a job" part. If there was a base incentive for everyone to finish the ESHL season and put in the effort, you may see a better success rate with the season.

    Also, I think there needs to be a serious dedicated schedule. Again, it's tough because of LGHL having the priority, but something has to be set in stone that can work. Make ESHL feel much bigger than it is at the moment and I think more people would like to get involved.

    The better competition thing also hurts many who sign up. With LG Pro, I don't think it was hard to guess the top couple of teams that would contend for a title. I know one reason I didn't sign up (along with time constraints) is that I knew I wouldn't be on a top team.. I'm just not good enough. And if people see teams that are stacked, good luck getting low tier LGHLers and even LGAHLers to sign up when there is no guarantee.

    It goes back to the beginning though of what I said. I'm sure everyone would sign up if there was an incentive just to show, rather than only an incentive to succeed at the top. Look at other Esports.. some organizations can't hang with the likes of the top, but they still have their base salary to keep them competing.
     
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  3. Forthy

    Forthy Well-Known Member

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    Having to buy in, and not being good enough are the biggest factors to playing LGHL over ESHL from my experience. Or the people who can afford to do it don't have a flexible schedule.
     
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  4. Slampsonn

    Slampsonn The Kid

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    Posted this in the xbox forums too, but id like to see what you guys think as well.

    I'd kinda like to see a structure some what of what cod does, smaller prized tournaments throughout the year that are not mandatory which I think will keep teams together as they have a chance to win money in some tournaments. At the end of the year you have a for say top 8 tournament with the largest pot.

    Again, if teams had multiple chances to win money and had a reason to keep playing and competing for something at the end I feel like that would keep them together and expand ESHL to some of those teams that play club together all the time but don't sign up.
     
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  5. LG McDonald

    LG McDonald Director of Hockey Operations

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    I think this is an excellent topic and brings a ton of discussions to the table.

    First of the LGHL and ESHL are night and day events IMO. They end up sharing some of the same issues and problems but IMO they cannot be compared.

    LGHL thrived from years of "nothing to play for" in EASHL. We were able to over a fun experience, competitive experience that this community wanted and has been waiting for since the NHL 09, NHL 10 playoffs.

    ESHL/ Pro Series was an a brilliant idea to give the top tier players a next level to play in. I believe it accomplished that for several events until things kind of feel of the rails with forfeits and the power to control who makes it in and who doesn't became a factor.

    IMO, I wanted the Thursday LGHL games gone because it was a single game, and availability sucked. It also opened the door up to having a day dedicated to ESHL. Keep in mind having a condensed LGHL week changes times. Therefore Wednesday in the NHL games are 9-10, AHL will like be 9:45-10:45, and CHL is 8:30-9:30. So besides the late AHL game, there is absolutely no reason why we can start games Wednesday and run them right into Friday. FNP puck is ALWAYS over capacity and people love these events.

    I don't think there is a solution yet I've seen for the forfeit issues. It literally comes down to integrity of players playing to show up and play even if they aren't making the playoffs. This is no different than what week eight and nine of the LGHL has to deal with as well. Unless we drastically increase the buy-in, so quitting financially hurts you way more I don't know what we can do. I've heard ideas like make forfeits not count as points, but then we have lower seed teams holding higher seed tops hostage potentially. The only real idea that comes to mind is why not go to a system identical to HUT Competitive seasons, therefore there is NO FORFEITS ever... I think a set schedule is great for so many but the abuse we uncovered with it and forfeits makes me believe a set schedule can't be possible to make these events work.

    This all comes back to the same root cause IMO. Player dedication! Everything here on here comes back to player dedication. I want nothing more right now than be able to play in our PSN League. Hell Tris even offered to dip into the buy-out money to get me a PS4. But my weekly availability limits me to the AHL times, and limits me to likely six games a week... I would need two outstanding managers who work together and with me to make that work. Which possible could be an issue.

    LG offers a pile of cool stuff, from soccer to the LGHL, from the CHL to the NHL and even from PS4 to Xbox. I am proud that we can offer so much appealing stuff that people are on here playing everything every night but it comes to a point where a propriety has to be made. Our players have to stop biting off more than they can chew. As far as I am concerned, I am extremely open to dedicating times for ESHL. But the league is 1/20th of the LGHL, and sometimes carries forfeit rates of up to 22%, where the LGHL has 4%...

    Our community just needs to come together, tell me what they want, how they want it, then commit to it.

    That's kind my perspective right now, looking at the future of both the ESHL and LGHL.

    I want to offer more to the top guys, event if that means those top guys stop playing LGHL and commit completely to ESHL. But I think we need to meet half way, because the time and effort that goes into getting sponsors and talking to 3rd parties and looking at legal aspects, then scheduling etc is a pile of work! Work I am willing to do unconditionally but not for an event riddles with forfeits and under appreciate players.

    I am extremely interested to hear what our top guys have to say.

    @frost I17I @jonlol
     
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  6. xXAucoin1Xx

    xXAucoin1Xx Well-Known Member

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    The biggest issues that I had with ESHL were scheduling, FF's, and number of players on a roster.

    There definitely needs to be some sort of set schedule. As an owner it was very stressful and frustrating trying to schedule every single game. As someone who works and can't stay up late to play games I've always had trouble playing in Pro Series and ESHL because all these young kids want to schedule games after midnight. A set schedule of Thursday games and maybe some other days mixed in would be helpful.

    The FF's were also a huge issue, and led to a team making the playoffs over other teams that had played games and were deserving. This should be looked into with bigger repercussions for teams giving up and not scheduling or showing if they are not going to make playoffs.

    The number of players on a roster was also an issue, but maybe with a set schedule could help. I think there should be an extra player or two added. I understand trying to break up teams like JAM to have more competitive teams, but you also needed to rely on a goalie to show up to every game if you only carried one, or have some very flexible players with great availability.

    Overall I definitely love the top competition and the games are more intense than LG without a doubt. A few more tweaks and I think it can be greatly improved.
     
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  7. zBernatchez

    zBernatchez Thin Blue Line

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    Lghl is where we ALL started, it is where we formed our club teams from and gave us the experience of making NHL fun and rewarding I.e. Stats, awards,cups etc. This is are grass root of the lg community that everyone enjoys and should continue to play.

    ESHL some problems fall on the individual teams picking players who ruin the experience for team members; as well as the league do the fact of Ffs. I think a code of conduct should be applied to ESHL similar to lghl leagues. If you ff the entire season you shouldn't be able to play in the next event. Also I think small tournaments would be a healthier style of play. Example would be 5 short tournaments with a final tournament with 8 teams or so invited to play based on tallied points from the previous 5 tournaments. Winner takes a bigger prize...something along those lines would give the community a more competitive play. Maybe even lowering the team fee for the first 5 tournaments to get more teams and giving the 8 teams free entry into the final competive bracket.

    I really enjoy lghl and ESHL as a hobby, but let's face we are all competive and want bragging rights and that's why most of us want to make ESHL that much more competitive. Also have multiple people on a scheduling committee and ESHL board "goveners" would help with better ideas and a smoother experience for all. I know @frost I17I put in a lot of work on his own and I'm sure he could use a extra hand or 6 lol.
     
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  8. Lazy Pedestrian

    Lazy Pedestrian Well-Known Member

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    Realistically, 99% of the community doesn't have a shot at winning in Esports.

    IMO it's as simple as that.
     
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  9. TheCurtisJoseph

    TheCurtisJoseph Well-Known Member

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    The times for ESHL are too late plus you already know who is going to win.
     
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  10. meka DVA meka

    meka DVA meka J'aime seulement ma maman et mon lit desole

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    The time issue is what kills this. If you work a Monday-Friday job or have Monday-Thursday morning classes nobody wants to be playing games at 12-1am in the morning. And 95% of people who play ESHL are not getting on a Friday or Saturday night. Again the schedule its awful, that's speaking from the last two years. First year you had TaL have something like 30 somewhat games being played because they wanted to play on both consoles AND play both LGHL leagues. That's not reasonable, I think better time management should be looked into by the teams. Then second year you had teams dodging other teams because the best roster they could field was not on, thus making the other team who had the 6 ready to go feel like a idiot because you are waiting at 1145 to hear the other team is rescheduling or FFing. Back to the time issue you have games finishing at 1-145am and then people have to get up for work around 5-7 or class 7-8. It's just not a nice convenient set up. Having that Wednesday LGHL games supposed to be done by 1045ish would be nice, could play a series at 1045 or 11 or just not play that game late Wednesday game and play from 10- whenever. Thursday being a open day is nice as well could potentially grind out 2+ series a night if you start at 9pm and run the games back to back. LGHL managers should know as well Player A is in ESHL he may not have 9/9. Also I think the roster size we had the past two years was great you saw a little more diversity amongst teams and clubs playing. Yeah the goalie issue is something that should be looked into. Maybe set roster at 8 like it was but have one player be a sub goalie and can only play as a goalie in games in which they are needed.
     
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  11. Rehanek

    Rehanek EASHL Historian

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    We need some egirls. I need egirls to impress with my esports play
     
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  12. zzzRy0

    zzzRy0 I forget the buttons

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    LGHL serves as a way to give a larger group of players access to making a name for themselves, and to gauge where they need to be to try and compete in a pro series/eshl level. I think eshl is where promotion of the top guys/teams needs to happen. This was something that frost, jon and others did a nice job of last season. Lghl has a rewarding experience that eshl can't give players even if no money is involved, while providing new players access to some of the leaders of the community. This way, more talent gets into more high profile games, like you get with eshl. Get it to where its not just JAM and and handful of others that are legit contenders.
     
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  13. Illyfilly

    Illyfilly Brenty Gee

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    From my perspective, both the LGHL and ESHL offer great experiences. Both have their pros and cons. As a working professional and father, structure in a league setting is tremendously important. I believe this is why LGHL is so successful, it provides a dedicated schedule and structure and provides a unique experience in line with the simulation of owning/managing and being part of something bigger than a club game with your buddies.

    We will never be able to weed out the cancers, quitters and bad teammates (Hell, I've been a bad teammate and cancerous). That being said, the ESHL should be the premier experience for the NHL title. It needs to be held to a higher standard. It cannot be run by someone in the community, it must be run by site management to insure a higher standard. Paying $150 to sponsor a team is well worth the investment to play against the top teams in a structured environment, however, without a set schedule and knowledge of game times, I would never put a team in.

    We can't control a team giving up when they are out of it, but maybe give them the old "participation award"? Maybe we offer Platitum to ESHL league participants with 0 FFs? What about teams receiving a "credit" for the following season if they play out each game? Something can be done, no idea if I'm in the right ballpark.

    LGHL cannot be replaced by ESHL and vice versa. LGHL is the lifeblood that feeds the usership/future ESHL participation. Maybe the buyin is stepped up? If you are banned in any one season of the LGHL, you are not allowed to participate in ESHL. Unfortunately, ban buyouts provide an income stream to the site, so it is very difficult to ask Tris to not allow bans to be bought out, but tougher restrictions/rules need to be put in place to protect the experience, especially if people are paying for it. The site also needs to be compensated for their time, so a 25% cut of the buyins is not egregious if the league is well run. I'm happy to give up winnings in lue of a better experience...at the end of the day, it really isn't about the winnings, it's the competition.

    In my opinion, the ESHL season should run in parallel with the LGHL season. Games are only played on Thursday, so maybe a four game mini series every Thursday night starting at 9pm. Game 1, 9pm, Game 2, 9:45pm, Game 3, 10:30pm, Game 4, 11:15pm. 36 game season, depending on how many teams are involved, Top 8 or 16 make playoffs and the Playoffs will coincide with the same LGHL playoffs, except Bo3 series are played on the Thursday night. For further playoff rounds, maybe it becomes a Thursday and Friday night series. I do think roster sizes need to be a bit larger due to availability issues and positional issues, however, that can be discussed internally.

    At the end of the day, I do believe the LGHL experience is much more important for the community as a whole than the ESHL experience. That being said, the ESHL experience should exist and should provide a unique opportunity for the best competition to be highlighted and available to the community, it just needs to be marketed and executed in the right way, which I believe can be accomplished.

    Illyfilly
     
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  14. Krok-o-dill

    Krok-o-dill Well-Known Member

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    For me I dont play Eshl because i dont have the connections to get on a good esports team. I know alot of these pro teams are very tight knit and usually the good players play with other good players

    Tough to commit money to a team when you already think you've lost.

    I like the randomness of LGHL and the lower leagues. Get to play with different people and there is alot of parity in the league. Always feel like you have a chance.

    Inb4 GG : I'll never GG
     
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  15. SkillzPayBills3

    SkillzPayBills3 Well-Known Member

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    Should do a pro series with the new 3s mode if they happen to fix it up and make it good. The competition would be unreal
     
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  16. SweetLou9208

    SweetLou9208 Well-Known Member

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    There is currently no Club challenge for 3s, Brodie is working on getting it added
     
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  17. Hriiz

    Hriiz mm moist

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    People are saying that 99% of the community don't have a chance to win eSports but it's makes for a better competition and entertainment throughout the leagues. Sure you have the heavy favourites but there will always be upsets. Tons of teams are understanding how to play which makes for a more competitive competition.
     
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  18. jonlol

    jonlol Pizza Bro

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    My intentions to run the PS4 ESHL league this year were to have:

    Set schedule - meaning set days and times each week just like LG. It would be like 2 or 3 days, not 5.
    • Why? Promotes viewership and sponsorships so people know when to expect games on twitch. It also makes players commit to the league so there are less FFs.
    • This would mean ESHL players prioritizing ESHL over LGNHL, which IMO needs to happen for the league to gain traction.
    • Prime time game times - Games need to be played at set times like 9/10 PM EST so more people can play and more people can watch.
    Formatting - Invite and Open. 2 divisions selected by community leaders as well as a small play-in tournament for the remainder of teams on the fringe.
    • Encourages less skilled teams to sign up and play open to get better.
    • Winners of open woud move up to Invite.
    • Bottom 2-3 teams of Invite would play 2nd/3rd teams of Open to determine who stays/goes to invite.
    • Prize pool/buy in could/would be different. The point is to make it to invite.
    • No tournament formats until there is a full league (12ish teams) worth of sponsorships
    • Number of teams in open would determine format (eg. schedule where everyone plays everyone, or a swiss format if there's too many teams)
    Forfeiting - If you're in invite you would be held accountable for playing games and not FFing.
    (These are Nuge's ideas)
    • Deposit - each team pays an extra amount of money at the beginning of the year. Every forfeit results in a chunk of that deposit being taken away and added to the overall prize pool. If no ffs or only 1 or 2 happen then you get the remainder of the deposit back.
    • Relegation to open for FFing invite games (possibility)
    • A set, pre-determined schedule means allowing the league to spread out the games so the best teams aren't playing the worst teams at the end of the year for easy FFs.
    • Roster replacements and size (8 players + a backup goalie, 1 roster replacement in season, another allowed between events).
    • ECU/Callup idea - allow teams in invite to have an ecu draft or just pick ECUs before the season starts. These players would be allowed to be called up if they can't field 6 players. The ECUs would still be allowed to stay on their Open division team.


    There is a lot more to this than just what I've posted, but Brodie, Tris, and I are all talking about this together.
     
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  19. zBernatchez

    zBernatchez Thin Blue Line

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    Could even make a second tier for ahl and chl players to get more interest. Based on how they finished they can move up in tiers next eshl series as well. Just a thought
     
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  20. jdheagle-

    jdheagle- Kiss The Rings

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    Increase the buy-in for fucks sake. Winning $150 and a watch (that I've yet to receive btw @Tris10) isn't enough.
     
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